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	<title>Deeptime Network | Jon Cleland Host | Activity</title>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host updated new location at Midland, MI 48640, USA</title>
				<link>https://dtnetwork.org/activity/p/25023/</link>
				<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jan 2020 08:46:49 -0500</pubDate>

				
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host wrote a new post, Deep Time History Wall Mural</title>
				<link>https://dtnetwork.org/?p=240242</link>
				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jul 2019 20:22:34 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check out the deep time history wall mural we put up at Midland High School! It makes me very glad to realize that hundreds of Michigan high school students are seeing this every day during the school year, [&hellip;] <img loading="lazy" src="https://dtnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Jon-Cleland-Host.jpg" /></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host wrote a new post, Help make Stardust Kid&#039;s book happen!</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/?p=16858</link>
				<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2016 14:02:33 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>8 year old Bailey is so inspired by the Cosmos series, that she wants to let every other kid know that they too are made of Stardust! She started a Kickstarter project to get her wonderful book into the hands of [&hellip;] <img loading="lazy" src="https://dtnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/help-make-stardust.jpg" /></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/28/#post-5195</link>
				<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:13:03 -0500</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Sorry for not checking back sooner.   Ed wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Great to see the conversation continuing…</p></blockquote>
<p>Thanks for the great contribution to the discussion.   Your last post is very helpful.    </p>
<blockquote><p>Philosophically then, the universe IS alive because WE are alive and we are inseparable from the universe.</p></blockquote>
<p>  Yes.  In that way, I agree.      </p>
<blockquote><p>So in this spirit, my&hellip;</p></blockquote>
<p><span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-3360"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/28/#post-5195" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/28/#post-5195</link>
				<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:13:03 -0500</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Sorry for not checking back sooner.&nbsp;Ed wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Great to see the conversation continuing…</p></blockquote>
<p>Thanks for the great contribution to the discussion.   Your last post is very helpful.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<blockquote><p>Philosophically then, the universe IS alive because WE are alive and we are inseparable from the universe.</p></blockquote>
<p>&nbsp;Yes.  In that way, I agree.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<blockquote><p>So in this spirit, my suggestion (as&hellip;</p></blockquote>
<p><span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-3359"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/28/#post-5195" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/27/#post-5135</link>
				<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2015 20:49:43 -0500</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Thanks, Michael! &nbsp;A lot of the stuff that Ursula and I thought was unhelpful had to do with making claims that go beyond the evidence, and with the use of reductionism as a reason to reject science.  Regarding reductionism, it&#8217;s important to be aware of the difference between methodological reductionism and ontological (or philosophical) r&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-3318"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/27/#post-5135" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/25/#post-5054</link>
				<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2015 16:20:37 -0500</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&lt;p&gt;&nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Duane, your selective quote of 148 words from a 900 word essay is not evidence, and worse, similar portions are taken out and used on all kinds of quack sites on the internet, to support all kinds of pseudoscience.  The essay itself is simply personal musings, not evidence &#8211; that&#8217;s why it&#8217;s in the essay section of Nature, not the r&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-3235"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/25/#post-5054" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/25/#post-5050</link>
				<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2015 19:43:10 -0500</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duane, that document makes many of the same failures to distinguish methodological naturalism from epistomological naturalism, referring to unproven stories as evidence, and false claims that many of us here have pointed out earlier in this thread.  Further, it seems to suggest that having a list of Ph.D. signatories at the end shows that it is&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-3232"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/25/#post-5050" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/27/#post-7511</link>
				<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2015 16:30:06 -0500</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duane, that document makes many of the same failures to distinguish methodological naturalism from epistomological naturalism, referring to unproven stories as evidence, and false claims that many of us here have pointed out earlier in this thread.  Further, it seems to suggest that having a list of Ph.D. signatories at the end shows that it is&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-3535"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/27/#post-7511" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/24/#post-4711</link>
				<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2015 13:02:12 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Jim-&nbsp;       The ease at which quotes can be picked to give a false impression was also pointed out much earlier in this discussion.  I&#8217;ll look back and see if I find it.  &nbsp;Thanks, Ursula, for re -posting that timely and relevant point about matter.&nbsp;About the Gaia hypothesis &#8211; a friend recently blogged about this very point &#8211; that there are sever&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-3069"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/24/#post-4711" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/23/#post-4620</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:42:41 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;Ed-&nbsp;   Thanks for all that, and for the interesting and productive conversation.  You are indeed a builder of bridges.I look forward to seeing what the future holds.Best-&nbsp;             -Jon&nbsp;</p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/23/#post-4604</link>
				<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2015 18:45:00 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Ed-Thanks for the clear and helpful response.  You wrote:&nbsp;</p>
<blockquote><p>Thanks for replying, Jon. You’ve raised some questions that I can address.    &#8230;.. &#8230;.. I am only trying to justify the research topic itself. You are dismissing it as frivolous.&nbsp;</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m not quite dismissing it as frivolous, but as an area that seems to have less promise than many other&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2969"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/23/#post-4604" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/22/#post-4584</link>
				<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2015 18:27:51 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Edyou wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Jon – To me, your arguments seem to come from a need to fit everything into a particular worldview – one that assures us that there is “nothing out of the ordinary.”</p></blockquote>
<p>&nbsp;No, quite the opposite.  I&#8217;d love to find out about things that are unknown or not explained &#8211; in fact, I&#8217;m sure that such things exist.  My need is fairness/r&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2947"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/22/#post-4584" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/20/#post-4511</link>
				<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:57:28 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Duane &#8211;    You wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>My experiences come from these years of laboratory experiments (for example, many with strip chart printouts — not fabricated memories) to show the results.    </p></blockquote>
<p>The reports on this work had access to all the data.  Those reports concluded that nothing substantial was found.</p>
<blockquote><p>    you so completely diminish and dismiss fi&hellip;</p></blockquote>
<p><span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2865"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/20/#post-4511" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<guid isPermaLink="false">108bc03266614eefb32ac6de2c710dba</guid>
				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/20/#post-4511</link>
				<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:57:28 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Duane &#8211; &nbsp;You wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>My experiences come from these years of laboratory experiments (for example, many with strip chart printouts — not fabricated memories) to show the results.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p></blockquote>
<p>The reports on this work had access to all the data.  Those reports concluded that nothing substantial was found.&nbsp; you so completely diminish and dismiss first-&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2864"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/20/#post-4511" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/20/#post-4494</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2015 18:22:45 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Ed-        Thanks for the response, and sorry about my slow reply (busy, as always).  You wrote:    </p>
<blockquote><p>While I still do not see the “diminishing effect” over time that you mentioned,</p></blockquote>
<p>  In the post that I referenced, I mentioned the strong effect claimed for &#8220;information transfer&#8221; in the 1800s and 1900s in ways such as clairvoyance, ESP, etc.  Compar&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2863"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/20/#post-4494" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/20/#post-4491</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2015 17:33:08 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Duane-&nbsp;  You wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>I could send along statistics to you (perhaps next week)</p></blockquote>
<p>&nbsp;I&#8217;d be happy to look at them, but think about this from the view of anyone else for a second.  The data could well show the 65% accuracy claimed in the early SRI data (after all, those data exist as well).  What would that mean?&nbsp;To answer that, think of how this go&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2856"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/20/#post-4491" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/19/#post-4427</link>
				<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2015 18:26:10 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Ed wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>however your claim that “that the closer these possible effects are looked at, the smaller and more elusive they become” is not substantiated in the citations I gave (as far as I can see). </p></blockquote>
<p>  Yes, it is substantiated.  If you look at the table on page 17 of the Bem &#8220;90&#8221; pdf, you can see that even with hundreds to thousands of experiments&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2819"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/19/#post-4427" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/19/#post-4427</link>
				<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2015 18:26:10 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Ed wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>however your claim that “that the closer these possible effects are looked at, the smaller and more elusive they become” is not substantiated in the citations I gave (as far as I can see). </p></blockquote>
<p>  Yes, it is substantiated.  If you look at the table on page 17 of the Bem &#8220;90&#8221; pdf, you can see that even with hundreds to thousands of experiment&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2818"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/19/#post-4427" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/19/#post-4417</link>
				<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2015 19:18:31 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;Duane, you wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p><span>I accept that these are your views but you will certainly </span><span>find sharp disagreement from skilled biologists working with these organisms. Professor Brian Leander of the Laboratory of Marine Organismal Diversity &amp; Evolution at the University of British Columbia concludes this article with the following:</span>But&hellip;</p></blockquote>
<p><span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2808"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/19/#post-4417" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/18/#post-4411</link>
				<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2015 21:20:50 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Duane, you wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>The article describes a single celled organism without any neural structure that is “pointing its ocelloid in different directions.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Sure.  My wind chime out my window points in different directions.  It&#8217;s not hard at all to have a mechanism that points in different directions.  Then, a simple light sensitive spot on it will be&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2803"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/18/#post-4411" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/18/#post-4406</link>
				<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2015 15:08:36 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Great to see Michael join us!   Duane, you wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>*****My key point was simply that consciousness does not require complex neural networks or a brain.  ******</p></blockquote>
<p>But your example didn&#8217;t show this in any way.  Your example showed a cell that does something in response to it&#8217;s environment &#8211; the exact same thing a plane on autopilot does &#8211; changing it&#8217;&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2797"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/18/#post-4406" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/18/#post-4389</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2015 21:35:22 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Ed-     Looking over those, I don&#8217;t see anything that changes my earlier statement &#8211; that the closer these possible effects are looked at, the smaller and more elusive they become &#8211; a hallmark of something that isn&#8217;t real.      At the same time, I agree with you that we are unlikely to change each other&#8217;s minds, and it seems that in any case,&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2772"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/18/#post-4389" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host posted a new activity comment</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/resource/deep-time-a-history-of-the-earth-interactive-infographic/#comment-179</link>
				<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2015 18:11:17 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really cool!</p>
				<strong>In reply to</strong> -
				<a href="https://dtnetwork.org/our-members/jennifer-morgan/" rel="nofollow ugc">Jennifer Morgan</a> wrote a new post, <a href="https://dtnetwork.org/?p=4320" rel="nofollow ugc">Deep Time: A History of the Earth &#8212; Interactive Infographic</a> The Earth is old, very very old. It is difficult for us humans to fully comprehend just how old our planet actually [&hellip;]			]]></content:encoded>
				
				
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/17/#post-4322</link>
				<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2015 17:54:29 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Ed-&nbsp;  Sorry for the long delay &#8211; a lot going on in my life.&nbsp;        you wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Personally, I’ve moved past such arguments – there is a TON of evidence regarding anomalous information transfer.  Others can wait for “extraordinary proof” to emerge that will put down even the most extreme skeptic, however I’ve grown impatient as the data mounts in fa&hellip;</p></blockquote>
<p><span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2678"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/17/#post-4322" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/15/#post-4281</link>
				<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2015 17:54:45 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Duane &#8211;       Thanks for supplying those.  It looks like things there are pretty well laid out.   ************************** Karen wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Like Ursula, I feel that life evolved all on its own.  In fact I think that carbon nitrogen hydrogen etc _tend_ to form the molecules of life. (As a result of my personal research, which I will explain in a se&hellip;</p></blockquote>
<p><span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2626"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/15/#post-4281" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/15/#post-4268</link>
				<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2015 21:21:53 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duane wrote:  </p>
<blockquote><p>Prof. Murakami also wrote that “The probability of living cell having come into existence by chance is so slender as to constitute a miracle: the odds would be something on the order of winning a million dollars in a lottery a million times in a row.” </p></blockquote>
<p>  Duane, first, could you please provide the source for that (full context), so we&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2614"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/15/#post-4268" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/14/#post-4246</link>
				<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2015 20:41:41 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Ed wrote/clipped:&nbsp;*****According to this controversial <a title="Fine-tuned universe" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe" rel="nofollow ugc">fine-tuning</a> hypothesis, life can only evolve in rare patches of the multiverse where the fundamental constants are fine-tuned to support the existence of life.******&nbsp;There are many reasons why the physical constants don&#8217;t clearly suggest any kind fine-tuner or such.  We simply don&#8217;t know wh&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2586"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/14/#post-4246" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/12/#post-4217</link>
				<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2015 17:39:11 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Ursula &#8211;&nbsp;   Thanks for yet again greatly helping our discussion by clarifying the points being made.  &nbsp;I&#8217;ve often wondered how to best explain to people how attractive and deadening the idea of dualism is.  It pervades our culture and stifles so much inquiry that it literally can&#8217;t be estimated.  I thought of a story, where a supporter of dual&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2554"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/12/#post-4217" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/10/#post-4136</link>
				<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2015 20:09:45 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Ed and Jennifer-&nbsp;         What a great idea &#8211; to get Jennifer&#8217;s stories and such up in dome format!  I agree with Jennifer &#8211; the dome stuff is fantastic!  Let me know if there is any way that I can help.  &nbsp;Jennifer &#8211; that description of Cosmic Education sounds really cool.&nbsp;Ed &#8211; also thanks for the link about EBP.  I&#8217;m glad that more rigorous&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2456"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/10/#post-4136" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/9/#post-4120</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2015 18:26:55 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;Wikipedia is OK in this case &#8211; it gives a good overview.&nbsp;However, the article is talking about philosophical naturalism.  You may remember that more than once I&#8217;ve asked if you understood the difference between philosophical materialism and methodological naturalism.  They aren&#8217;t the same thing.  We all &#8211; including you &#8211; operate under me&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2439"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/9/#post-4120" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/9/#post-4116</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2015 17:05:33 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Duane wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>My understanding of a “materialist” view of the universe is summarized in the following propositions (which I understand may not reflect your own):• 1 Measurable matter is the only reality and is essentially mechanical in its workings. </p></blockquote>
<p> Is someone claiming that nothing else could exist?  I think you might be taking the fact that scie&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2437"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/9/#post-4116" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/9/#post-4116</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2015 17:05:33 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Duane wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>My understanding of a “materialist” view of the universe is summarized in the following propositions (which I understand may not reflect your own):• 1 Measurable matter is the only reality and is essentially mechanical in its workings. </p></blockquote>
<p> Is someone claiming that nothing else could exist?  I think you might be taking the fact that scie&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2436"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/9/#post-4116" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/9/#post-4116</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2015 17:05:33 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Duane wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>My understanding of a “materialist” view of the universe is summarized in the following propositions (which I understand may not reflect your own):• 1 Measurable matter is the only reality and is essentially mechanical in its workings. </p></blockquote>
<p> Is someone claiming that nothing else could exist?  I think you might be taking the fact that sci&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2435"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/9/#post-4116" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/7/#post-4082</link>
				<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2015 20:39:42 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds like we are talking about &#8220;models&#8221;, not &#8220;assumptions&#8221;.  I don&#8217;t know of any scientists who make this list of assumptions.  Even the idea of &#8220;model&#8221; doesn&#8217;t fit for some of these.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/7/#post-4077</link>
				<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2015 18:12:40 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Ed-   You wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>“Scientists are great at crafting theories and gathering evidence. But they are not generally very good storytellers.”</p></blockquote>
<p>        Yes, exactly!  This is why our Deep Time Journey Network is so vitally important.  It reminds me of this very interesting podcast I listened to recently by Randy Olson, called &#8220;Don&#8217;t be such a scientist!&#8221;&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2392"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/7/#post-4077" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/6/#post-4052</link>
				<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2015 14:14:38 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Yes, an interesting conversation.  &nbsp;Duane, I hope everything goes well with the move.  Since you indicated you don&#8217;t agree on the conclusion to your opening discussion about metabolism (sorry about my statement, since you ended up not agreeing), it sounds like we&#8217;ll need to get back to points ((A))- ((F)) if you want to return to that c&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2359"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/6/#post-4052" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host posted a new activity comment</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/resource/elemental-birthdays/#comment-158</link>
				<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2015 13:57:20 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, check out our 18 second book trailer!  <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9Tyck37klw" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9Tyck37klw</a></p>
				<strong>In reply to</strong> -
				<a href="https://dtnetwork.org/our-members/equinox/" rel="nofollow ugc">Jon Cleland Host</a> wrote a new post, <a href="https://dtnetwork.org/?p=3624" rel="nofollow ugc">Elemental Birthdays &#8211; How to Bring Science into Every Party</a> Kids&#8217; eyes light up when they learn they are made out of stardust! Elemental Birthdays lets anyone celebrate birthdays [&hellip;]			]]></content:encoded>
				
				
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/6/#post-4048</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2015 21:22:02 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More later, but first I have to ask about this.&nbsp;Duane, you wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>If there now is consensus among origin-of-life researchers that RNA chains are too specialized to have been created as a product of random chemical reactions&#8230;..</p></blockquote>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;Are you claiming that such a consensus now exists?  If so, could you offer some support for that?  If not, then what d&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2354"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/6/#post-4048" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/4/#post-4010</link>
				<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2015 17:24:40 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed- great to meet you!  &nbsp;            Interesting background.  I think our ability to tell stories is key to any culture, and I see the Universe Story as so essential to our future.  Your technology could be extremely helpful.  It&#8217;s great to connect here.  You can see some of my stuff by looking around online.  You&#8217;ll find that I feel a spiritual c&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2307"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/4/#post-4010" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/3/#post-3997</link>
				<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2015 16:03:40 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Duane-&nbsp;      As you had proposed, we were having an orderly discussion of a specific question &#8211; &#8220;does the universe fit David Christian&#8217;s definition of being &#8220;alive&#8221;, starting with the first part of that definition, &#8220;having a metabolism&#8221;.   It is clear that we have not resolved that question, nor agreed on points ((A)) through ((H)).&nbsp; You have&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2293"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/3/#post-3997" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/3/#post-3973</link>
				<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2015 13:28:12 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  OK, I&#8217;m back.   I&#8217;ll quickly respond to your most recent post, then continue on the points ((F)) &#8211; ((H))&nbsp; ((A))  Apology accepted.  Thanks.  : )&nbsp; ((C)) &#8211; Let&#8217;s not bring in additional topics such as branes until we resolved the current ones.  So far, it doesn&#8217;t seem clear to me that we&#8217;ve resolved a single point, much less resolved whether the u&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2259"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/3/#post-3973" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/3/#post-3973</link>
				<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2015 13:28:12 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  OK, I&#8217;m back.   I&#8217;ll quickly respond to your most recent post, then continue on the points ((F)) &#8211; ((H)) ((A))  Apology accepted.  Thanks.  : ) ((C)) &#8211; Let&#8217;s not bring in additional topics such as branes until we resolved the current ones.  So far, it doesn&#8217;t seem clear to me that we&#8217;ve resolved a single point, much less resolved whether the u&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2258"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/3/#post-3973" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/3/#post-3973</link>
				<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2015 13:28:12 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;OK, I&#8217;m back.   I&#8217;ll quickly respond to your most recent post, then continue on the points ((F)) &#8211; ((H))((A))  Apology accepted.  Thanks.  : )((C)) &#8211; Let&#8217;s not bring in additional topics such as branes until we resolved the current ones.  So far, it doesn&#8217;t seem clear to me that we&#8217;ve resolved a single point, much less resolved whether the univ&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2257"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/3/#post-3973" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/2/#post-3969</link>
				<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2015 21:27:48 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Hi Duane-&nbsp;   Yes, we are both very busy, and that&#8217;s OK.  There is no rush.  If you&#8217;d prefer I wait to reply after you put in a partial reply, so you can put the rest of the reply up, just let me know and I&#8217;ll wait.   I had just split up a post like that yesterday.    &nbsp;To keep things from getting messed up, I went back and labelled the curren&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2251"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/2/#post-3969" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/2/#post-3960</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:27:57 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the delay.  Here is my response continued.((G))Duane wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>***you offer the statement that the physicist, Dr. David Bohm “was regularly fooled by charlatans.” I am interested in the actual data that supports this important assertion.  ***</p></blockquote>
<p>  Yes, it is always quite fair to ask for support for any claim.  Here is a start &#8211; though there i&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2250"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/2/#post-3960" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/2/#post-3960</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:27:57 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the delay.  Here is my response continued. Duane wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>***you offer the statement that the physicist, Dr. David Bohm “was regularly fooled by charlatans.” I am interested in the actual data that supports this important assertion.  ***</p></blockquote>
<p>   Yes, it is always quite fair to ask for support for any claim.  Here is a start &#8211; though there is more&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2237"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/2/#post-3960" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/2/#post-3957</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2015 10:43:43 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Duane &#8211;         Thanks for the response.   I would like to add that I greatly appreciate your work and contributions, and see a lot of positive impact in our world from you and  your work, and am  honored to be friends with you.  That&#8217;s regardless of whether or not we&#8217;ll find points where we disagree. &nbsp;you wrote:*** In that spirit, I question yo&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2249"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/2/#post-3957" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<guid isPermaLink="false">243d1123a0b8963c2b4d1973f501ee09</guid>
				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/2/#post-3957</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2015 10:43:43 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  Duane &#8211;         Thanks for the response.   I would like to add that I greatly appreciate your work and contributions, and see a lot of positive impact in our world from you and  your work, and am  honored to be friends with you.  That&#8217;s regardless of whether or not we&#8217;ll find points where we disagree.  you wrote:*** In that spirit, I question yo&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2235"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/2/#post-3957" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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				<guid isPermaLink="false">122e6edaebe22610544690e717b6a09c</guid>
				<title>Jon Cleland Host replied to the topic Is the universe a &#34;living system&#34;? in the forum Deeptime Network Forum</title>
				<link>http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/2/#post-3957</link>
				<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2015 10:43:43 -0400</pubDate>

									<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&nbsp;Duane &#8211;&nbsp;      Thanks for the response.   I would like to add that I greatly appreciate your work and contributions, and see a lot of positive impact in our world from you and  your word, and am  honored to be friends with you.  That&#8217;s regardless of whether or not we&#8217;ll find points where we disagree. you wrote:*** In that spirit, I question yo&hellip;<span class="activity-read-more" id="activity-read-more-2231"><a href="http://wptaverncommunity.wefoster-platform.co/forums/topic/is-the-universe-a-living-system/page/2/#post-3957" rel="nofollow ugc">[Read more]</a></span></p>
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