[Noha Tarek]

Hi everyone 🙂

I’m truly honored Di that you find our friendship valuable in both our lives ♥ And by the way, I also have the same problem of trying to write down every specific point I want to discuss & mention, but then I gave up too, because I found that this will make me write very long long long posts, so now I keep up with just short & few comments – as much as I can :-p

I agree with both of you that countering intolerance is a need that is accelerating every day, with the horrible events that we are happening. But I think this is a health recovery sign of humanity finally finding its emancipative end-purpose. As communication links between humans across the globe have intensified & spread, our differences are exposed more & more to each – so we’re finally coming boldly to face our decision as to how we should live our imminent state of a “global village”…

I was actually confused when reading Heikki’s account of Tzvetan’s praxiological axis, because he only talked about two options, whether the self is distancing itself (is indifferent) toward the other, or the self has rapprochement with the other – but doesn’t mention the option of the self approaching the other with conflict. But indeed, as Heikki says, this rapprochement would be co-constitutive; each identity/self would transform the other… I look at it also from the perspective of Hegel’s dialectical relationship that progresses history forward (a thesis interacting with an antithesis to co-produce/transform into a synthesis)… An identity of a being is not a constant thing (perhaps our bodies are constant for a certain period of time, but our minds/identities/consciousness are certainly not), my identity is an endless cycle of transformation with other identities I encounter with, every moment that passes, each of our identities co-transform with each other as we exchange words, ideas, experiences, even simple gestures, in endless overlapping circles of interaction –> transformation… for ex., when I touch a cat & pat her/him, both of our identities co-transform – of course, the level of identity transformation is different with the difference in our levels of consciousness (though, not to say that “I” have a “higher” consciousness & the “cat” has a “lower” consciousness, ’cause we don’t want to fall into the axiological self/other conflict of some being being “higher” than the other; but rather just to say that we have different holarchic levels)… how is that: when I pat the cat, my emotion of affection for the weaker/smaller, of “care”, is intensified & emphasized, & my awareness of another being’s possible actions & reactions increases. While on the part of the cat, as I show affection to her, her awareness of the action of “care” practiced by another being increases, & her intimacy with other beings increases as well, & hence, my own affectionate action increases with her responding reaction… & so we both c-transform with one act of patting…

And I think perhaps this is how history progresses, in a constant overlapping transformations of beings/identities… the question is whether these synthetic transformations will bring about a harmonious unity in the end of history, or conflicting interactions will conquer & destroy?!!

[Noha Tarek]

Thank you for sharing with us the film discussion, I will certainly watch the film, read the discussion, & re-discuss it with you 🙂

I understand now better your point of criticism toward the presenters. You mean not integral between human & non-human. I absolutely agree with you about that…

In the paper that I shared, Heikki Patomaki talks about Tzvetan Todorov’s three axes of ego(self)/other relations. One is epistemological (what we know of the other), the other axiological, & the third is praxiological (rapprochement or distancing oneself from the other in one’s actions).

In the 2nd axiological axis, that’s about value judgments one gives about the other. Tzvetan doesn’t only limit this to self judging the other as “good” or “bad”. But more importantly:

“Even more drastically than empirical descriptions, a judgement on the ontological status, particularly if conceived in terms of the “Great Chain of Being”, has axiological consequences. Thus, morally & politically it is critical whether the other is judged to be an equal or a “lower” being. Modern progressive time – & the idea of stages of development – has often defined the status of self (advanced) & others (inferior). This is ethico-politically as consequential as a set of standards based for instance on imperial or religious civilization”

This is what we’re doing with non-humans… I wonder when we’ll free ourselves from this perception of hierarchic superiority/inferiority of beings, just as in the past people have freed themselves (or at least most, since it seems that there are still neo-Nazis / white supremacists!) from perceiving different human races/religions in such a similar hierarchy of “progression/advancement”!

[Noha Tarek]

Hi everyone 🙂 I have three points to add here:

1* If I understand your point correctly Orla, you mean to criticize people who talk about tolerance toward the other as we all share the same world, because they actually maintain the idea that there “is” an “other” rather than saying that we are actually “one” not “self vs. other”?

If that’s what you mean, I’d like to refer to you a paper I just looked through (which I’ll add to resources here as well), talking about the prospect of Big History or Deep Time emerging a new global identity. The author presents philosophical criticisms (from the perspective of critical realism & post-structuralism) that talk about how such an identity – if could ever emerge – is very far away from becoming possible (though the author tries to give alternative solutions). One idea that allures me, is the idea that the “self” could never exist without there being an “other” or “anti” to it! That “being or existence” itself depends on the possibility of “non-being or non-existence”.

The paper is: “Is a Global Identity Possible? The Relevance of Big History to Self-Other Relations”, by Heikki Patomaki, 2007 – you can find it on google.

I’m still pondering this idea, & it amazes me that throughout the Universe evolution, you may find that indeed, everything exists with its anti (self/other) – matter & anti-matter; energy & dark energy; male & female; survival & sacrifice; love & fear… etc. I wonder if perhaps, the whole cosmic process is about “self” unconditioning or freeing itself from the “other”, & the ultimate end is when the “self” completely frees itself, & there’s no longer an “other”! That is unity/integrity becomes absolute.

One such way to reach this, is when humans realize, as you say, that our unity is existential, it’s not just that we share a common place, but rather, that the whole Universe is essentially integrated into one common origin that exploded into the Big Bang, hence, we have to uncondition ourselves from “needing” to perceive that there is an “other” – whether this self-proclaimed other is another human of a different race/religion, or a plant, or a rock, anything…

2* I just read this part from “The Future of Global Civilization: Commentary of Big Historians” for Ekaterina Sazhienko, 2014, & immediately remembered our conversation – the article is a content analysis of a number of journal articles & interviews, in order to see what Big Historians forecast for our future:

“Modern society faces many challenges that threaten its development & human survival in general & that can reduce living standards, deepen political tension & environmental degradation, as well as increase the number of social conflicts. The content analysis indicates that sociocultural issues are more frequently discussed than many others. In our opinion this proves that they are of utmost importance, especially the ones related to religious contradictions of the global civilization. The religious factor can cause serious problems, such as terrorism, wars, ethnic, & confessional conflicts. One can argue that we are dealing with a collision not just between two world religions, but between traditional Islam & Capitalism, between the Eastern & Western civilizations that are based on different values & life goals.

The articles under study pay little attention to environmental & socio-economic issues. Probably, the reason is that people have already gained positive experience in solving the problems associated with various restorative measures for environmental management & protection, as well as humanitarian relief to the poorest of the developing countries.”

So, we “have” developed tremendously in environmental management, economic enterprises, & technology… what we have “yet” to develop an integrative universal through is culture, spirituality, politics! In fact, I’d boldly add, that “because of” our falling so much behind in our cultural-spiritual-political awareness, even our developments achieved in the spheres of economics, technology, humanitarian relief, health, etc. are not reaching their utmost potential because of the cultural values & conflicts that the people’s minds are stuck in!!!

3* A recent relevant instance that’s taking place right now… is that while Muslims are formally (though not informally!) celebrating Eid AlAdha these days, pictures & news have went viral all over Muslim channels, social networks, & media about the unbelievably horrifying massacres committed by the Buddhist majority against the Muslim Rohingya minority (I’ve recently seen photos of murdered babies, tortured children, & women having their breasts & heads cut off their bodies with knives!!!).

Needless to mention, comments expressed by Muslims designating as the Muslim self against the infidel other (that is all non-Muslims) are sparked everywhere. But whose fault is this? Indeed, education, socialization/upbrining, & the thought system or concept of “religion” itself is a factor in creating this self/other conflict. But when as a human, who doesn’t believe or is indifferent toward religion, views the international system & major international actors (who belong to a cultural background of both Christianity & Secularism/Atheisma/Realism) acting only to save prejudiced Christian/Jew minorities (ex., East Timor/Indonesia) or minorities where their place intersects with geo-political-economic power interests (ex., Kosovans, Yazidis in Iraq), but give a blind eye to Muslim minorities of places with no such interests (ex., Chechnyans, Uighurs), & more so, designate Muslims who commit relevant massacres as savage “Islamic terrorism”, but don’t designate similar massacres committed by Christians (ex., American invasion of Iraq), Jews (in Palestine), Buddhists (in Myanmar), Confucians (against Uighurs), etc. as savage Christian-Jewsish-Buddhist-Confucian terrorism, given equal attention in world media with Islamic terrorism (which is in my opinion all gibberish anyway, because a person commits crimes for different psychological-social-economic-political reasons irrespective of his religion!)… when all this happens, it is no wonder that the complex problem of self-other perception & animosity increases & spreads among Muslims all over the world, as they perceive the other/world as attacking/prejudicing their self… & the civilizational conflict perpetuates!

I’m sorry to write all this long post, but I had to ramble a bit 🙂

[Noha Tarek]

Hi Orla,,,

I absolutely agree with you that our cosmic integrative vision should not be limited to the boundaries of education & learning (in school/college/academia), but should also overflow to all other spheres of our lives – on all levels, individual every-day life, group activities, social & global organization…

Taking the Journey of the Universe MOOC, & the activists’ interviews, I got the idea that so far, this Universal Vision is only available in three spheres (& even so, with yet limited affect): education/academia – economic & civil engineering enterprises – spiritual & religious organizations…

So far, we have yet to see the universal vision overflow to two very important (& mass critical) spheres: political organization & governance – entertainment & mass media industry. Of course, there are attempts to get into these two spheres (ex., green peace parties, & cosmic evolution TV series & films), but their impacts & presence are severely limited, as short-term interests, nationalistic realist perspectives, & wealth revenues are still heading the game! 🙁

[Noha Tarek]

That’s great Di 🙂 I think the best thing is that you write through practice. It’s hard to imagine this, unless you do it in practice with children. You can spend a regular time with children in KG, or even better, with children in orphanages, or perhaps even with refugees (along with international organizations’ centers in Australia). It would be like an ethnographic study, you observe, practice with children, see their reactions, & write…

[Noha Tarek]

Thank you Di for your reply 🙂

I didn’t completely understand what you’re working on now. Did you mean that you’re writing a paper/book about 40 values to nurture in children, that link new knowledge with traditions?

I think that for the children to build on their own cultural values, based on their unique experiences, they have to be guided by a critical view of the prevalent culture in their society, & the global culture as a whole. But why? Because I remember Thomas Berry saying in one of the videos in the JOTU MOOC (I can’t remember which video), that the transformation we’re going through now is greater than any transformation or challenges faced by the great figures in human history (including prophets), therefore, we need something so immense in its inspiration to radically change us in order to be well equipped to go through this Universal transformation without falling into extinction.

That’s why I think we need next generations to have a radically changed set of values, morals, behaviors, than previous generations. Because if next generation will continue on our (& previous generations) path, we’re going into doom!

[Noha Tarek]

Hi everyone & thank Di for this beautiful thread… I know this is a very late addition, but I just read through your wonderful posts…

Adding my own “reflection”, as Teilhard advises us… It’s very brilliant Di the expression that you mentioned about coming through the lens of the Universe Story upon this Network here, trying to “free ourselves from idolizing bonds of ideology or theology”… this made me reflect on how we’re going to spiritually direct or guide children (the future generations), whom – hopefully, unlike us – their spiritual educational background wouldn’t be ideologized or theologized as we had… so how will their spiritual guidance be? Without the guise of ideo-theo (a spur of the moment nickname for ideologized or theologized 🙂 ) that played the role of spiritually directing our & preceding generations?

I think perhaps, “science” may take this role… I remember the science classes that we had (& still have) in schools today, & they’re definitely not fit for scientific, exploratory, & innovative inspiration, let alone spiritual inspiration, for children!!! But in our age, with all the accumulated scientific explorations that have revealed a well-connected self-organizing grand system of an evolving Universe; to tell children this magnificent story of the Universe as a science is enough for itself to wildly ignite the spiritual kindling within children’s hearts, without the need anymore for the ideo-theo texts of our forefathers!

[Noha Tarek]

This is a wonderful post & comments…

There are a lot to comment on, so I’ll only suffice with a few…

I agree that the word “tolerance – Tasamohh in Arabic -” is not sufficient here. I remember a teacher of mine (can’t remember exactly when or where) explained to us in class that it’s not good to say that (as the majority of Muslims in Egypt) we’re tolerant toward the minority of Coptic Christians, because that means we just “accept” them to live with us or to adopt their different religion!!! I think “tolerance” is more applicable toward one being “tolerant” or “accepting” criticism being directed toward her/him by another person.

In our context of discussion, like others suggested, “empathy – used in political discourse as understanding and being able to feel what another subject feels”, & even more powerful words as “compassion”, & I add “xenophilia – which I loved as soon as I encountered in the English dictionary, meaning the prefer different persons over similar persons, & have a tendency to enjoy engaging with people of different ethnicity/religions/cultures -“; would be much better in our context of discussion.

So you all added mindfulness, meditation, spending a lot of time in nature doing things we usually do indoors, & music (that is something that has to be dealt with in the sect of Slalfi Islam – the background I come from -, as music & singing is considered forbidden, so sadly, many people where I live are denied to experience this exhilarating transformation of feelings)… I want to add, nurturing children with a revolutionary spirit & what Prof. Philip mentioned in his PD video “psychological – & I’d add socio-political – unconditioning of children & adults’ minds (it’d be more difficult with adults, of course)…

To elaborate further with a story, & here I want to differ with a point mentioned before, that children not struggling for survival have a lower chance to be educated into compassion than children not struggling, besides differing with what’s mentioned here that “religion” – as opposed to “spirituality” in my opinion – is a factor that enhances compassion (while I think it is the biggest factor that enhances rejection of the other throughout human history, at least maybe since the onset of Abrahamic religions)…

I think (though this is something I aim to further study & research – for PhD & later as well -) that children’s innate orientations are already originally directed toward adopting such positive attitudes as compassion & oneness, & it is actually the socialization process of being brought up by family/society/media/education that distorts or crooks this original tendency toward intolerance/ego-centrism (although “ego” is supposed to be the whole “Universe” & this differentiation into space/time/subjects may be only a temporary illusion in this life), to identify oneself as belonging to a specific group of ethnicity/nation/religion, & to build “loyalty” to the members of this group, “against” members of other groups!!!

Of course this is a hypothesis that I still need to research & test… One of the stories that inspired me for my life’s purpose research happened to me “again” during the revolutionary events here in Egypt (which I will elaborate later on how revolutions & nurturing a revolutionary spirit is necessary for transformation).

The revolution was perhaps the first events in decades in which Muslims & Christians took part together in a struggle side by side, even dying together, for one cause, that created deep emotional relationships between them (including myself, as my life was saved once by a Christian guy, whom without I’d be in my grave now & not posting this!!!). A guy I knew, used to be a fundamentalist Salafi, but engaging in the revolution, & making friends with Christians there, transformed him (except for patriarchal attitudes against women, which is the hardest to deal with among Arabs!). He made very close relations with a Chraistian guy called Mina Daniel, who was later murdered by the military (they crushed the tank over him & others!), & became a revolution martyr. This guy I knew suffered from severe depression & kept to his bed for about half a year after this.

When I talked to him later, I asked him why does he feel great sorrow & depression because of Mina, although many of other friends of his were murdered too. He said “Because my other friends are Muslims, so I rest assured that they’re in Heaven now, & I will meet them again after I die. But Mina is Christian, so he’ll suffer in Hell, & I won’t get to be with him again!”… At that time, my own consciousness transformation was not complete & I didn’t yet encounter Big History, so I told him “Don’t worry, maybe he was actually a Muslim in his belief but didn’t show it, or he decided to convert to Islam right before he was killed!”…

Later, I kept reflecting over this (when you are in a revolution, your consciousness keeps thinking, reflecting, & transforming). So, another day, there were raging protests of people, one group were protesting in support of the Muslim Brotherhood president (before the coup d’etat) Mohammad Morsi, & one against him. I decided to make a test for myself. I went to the first group of protesters & talked with a girl (around 10:12 yo) who was with her parents. I asked her “Where do you think a protester from the other group would go to if s/he gets killed?”, she answered “To Hell, because they’re against Islam & the Islamist president”. I further asked her “Where do you think a Christian who’s protesting with you would go to”, she also answered “To Hell, because he’s not Muslim”.

Then I went to the other group of protesters, & talked with a girl about the same age, who was with her mother. I asked her “Where do you think a Christian protesting here with you would go to if s/he gets killed?”, she answered the same “To Hell, because he’s not Muslim”.

Later this night, when I was waiting for the metro heading a home, a street child (this is an expression here we give to very poor children who spend all their time roaming the streets trivial things & begging to collect money) sat next to me offering to sell me something. It got into my head to ask him the same question, & he answered “Well, why would God send a Christian to Hell if s/he’s good?! Good people go to Heaven & bad people go to Hell!!!”, & that’s coming from a child who doesn’t go to school & doesn’t have a stable family/home (unlike both of the previous girls!)…

Sadly, however you educate children with the Universe story & all the other things, those children still go to their “parents” at home, follow “TV & the internet”, watch “movies”, play violent “PS games”, live in a larger “society” that holds ethnic/religious prejudices, & live in yet a larger “global system” in which national/civilizational idetifications is the rule of the game!

I agree also with what’s mentioned before, that chaotic or seemingly-bad & disturbing situations taking place is actually much beneficial, because it forces people to re-evaluate & reflect upon basic cultural/identity principles & values & creates a clear demarcation of what is truly “good” vs. “bad” as that street kid would identity innocently, which I have come to believe – as that child – to be the only identity difference that exists between humans, & I had to experience a revolution to “uncondition” my former Salafi socialization background “before” reading the Universe Story to completely transform my consciousness.

So I would add that nurturing a revolutionary spirit in children against the status-quo of arrangements, cultural identifications, & policies with which their immediate society (& that includes Western societies as well as other societies too, because it is clear that racism, fundamentalism, & materialist realism.consumerism are spreading in the West too, besides the Middle East, Africa, & Asia – despite their non-Abrahamic religions -! (don’t know if this is in Latin America too), & the whole world is being governed with. Perhaps even taking them to participate in protests & strikes may embody this. As well as asking them to “imagine” in drawing/writing/orally narrating what a different “Universally spirited” society/world may be like, & brainstorming activities they may do together to help create this other world…

This is only concerning compassion between humans, as for compassion between humans & other beings, that needs another story/post… 🙂

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